The HubHeroes Podcast

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And we're all back, and we're all reunited. Who? Maxa is sick. I'm not in Georgia. Georgia.

George, you're back from vacation. And Chad, I feel like you're the most consistent person for our audience

over the

past few weeks.

Well, you know, sometimes. I mean, I'm gone

out

Chad's and out like,

I do what I can. I do what I do. I show up here. Yeah.

We dabble. We dabble.

Yeah.

Gentlemen, are we ready to dig back into our second part of our conversation about loop marketing?

What did I miss?

George, you wanna help out on that one? Other than everything?

Yeah. I mean, So here's the thing. One of the things I said in the previous episode about Loop Marketing, and by the way, if you're a listener and you're like Max right now, and you're like, what did I miss? Go back and listen to the other episode. Because I talked about things like everywhere I looked on the internet, everybody's trying to cover loop marketing in one video.

It's impossible. Yeah. We talked about how HubSpot themselves even said like more coming on the actual loop marketing page because they know they need to build it out. And my brain went to like seven to eight different things in each of the stages that are like more across the entire organization instead of just marketing or even like sectors of marketing. And so we, we were able to do what I'd call a, a pretty good job at an overview of loop marketing and teasing the fact of like, were gonna do an episode per stage of this to kind of dig in deeper and really give people the, the juice or the meat or whatever analogy you wanna use.

And so-

The taters.

The taters to go along with the steak, whatever it is. Cause, cause we are serving up a seven course loop marketing meal over the next couple of weeks. And, and again, we'll probably put it all together for some type of pillar page loop marketing piece of content. Where all four episodes, actually, I'm sorry, it'll be five, overview, and then an episode for each of the stages. So that's kind of what you missed, Max.

You might go back, you might listen because who knows? You might actually hate something that one of us said and wanna combat against in the next episode when we talk about, you know, the next step of, or the next press of the gas pedal around the racetrack of

The next swoop of the loop.

The swoop of the loop.

I love it. The only other thing I think, that is worth mentioning, and I think it's good for Max to hear, but also just as a reminder for our listeners who may want to loop back to that episode. Wow. Also had a really good debate about why we are even here with Loop Marketing to begin with. Because there is some conversation about is HubSpot solving a problem for their platform?

Are they solving a problem for their users? Are we just rebranding the things that we already did? Wait. But what about the flywheel? So Yeah.

Mhmm. For Max and our listeners at home, it gets a little spicy,

but it was good.

It's the good kind of spice.

Yeah. It was Yeah. It was good. Chris Carillon even, like, reached out to me almost immediately when listening to the podcast episode and mentioned something that Liz said and had feelings and thoughts. So it's it's it's very much a feelings and thoughts provoking episode, Max.

That's that's what you missed, my friend.

Best feels. I'm sure

I'll have some feelings today.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Might even turn your glasses around the right way. No. Been here to play them all game. Okay? Yeah.

Yeah. By the way, just so you know, I'm ready now for any of the loop jokes that do happen the rest of the episode. I've got our little thing there. Oh, Alright. Prank them, John.

Well, this is the exact episode designed per I'm just gonna move on, guys. We're just gonna move on. We're just gonna keep yep. Alright. Yep.

So this is the precise episode of both fortunately and unfortunately for all of these feelings and shenanigans because we are talking about the first step in loop marketing, which is express. We be expressing It's about clarity. It's about identifying your brand identity, tone, values, any way that you can get your content to move from generic to greatness. From slop to unforgettable. So George, you've already given a great overview at a high level of what we talked about last time with loop marketing.

But I want you to just tap into that superpower of yours of simplifying the complex, right? We've got four steps.

Yeah.

What is Express for our HubSpotters out there? And where does it fit in that cycle?

Yeah, it's the place where I want people to slow down. Like seriously, the thing that I'm worried about most, what I fear most is that marketers will rush past this part because they're like, oh, we've already got that or somebody put that in place five years ago or like, we've got this, you need to slow down and you need to kind of look at what you have or build in what you need to build upon what maybe you have, or if you don't have anything that you're paying attention to. Again, I feel like most marketers were busy or trying to keep up, especially in the world of HubSpot and HubSpot updates and, you know, AI and AI changes and, like, just take a deep breath because the express part of this, it's makes or breaks everything that follows in loop marketing. And so here's the deal, when I think about Express, it's where you plant your flag. You plant your flag in the ground and you say, This is who we are.

This is what we wanna sound like. It's the, this is who we help and here's how we show up differently than the rest of everybody else. And if you think about loop marketing cycle, express, tailor, amplify and evolve the four stages or swoops or swooshes of the, of the loop express sits right at the start and it sits at the start for a reason. It's, it's again, that foundation, Every strategy, every email, every piece of AI generated content that you create later, every podcast episode, every video, whatever it is, depends on how clear you are here in this express stage. And so again, without it, without that clarity, without the context to kind of move forward, your Taylor stage is aimless.

Your Amplify stage becomes noisy and your Evolve stage ends up optimizing what could potentially be chaos. So like, again, think about what you should be thinking about or to simplify maybe this into like three main things, what you should be doing in the Express. I feel like, and we're going to probably talk about this in a little bit more in today's episode, one, voice and vibe, Right? In express, want you to think about voice and vibe. How do we sound like when we show up in the world?

What do we sound like when we show up in the world? Who do we want to be? For years, guys, you know, Liz, you know, I've been showing up in the world, happy, helpful, humble human. Like that, that's my voice, that's my vibe. But for you listening to this, are you playful?

Are you direct? Are you technical? Are you inspirational? This becomes your language DNA. And you can kind of hand to your team and hand to your AI tools.

There's a word here that you've got to kind of be paying attention to what HubSpot HubSpot said, and it was kind of an undertow in different areas, there's going to be hybrid teams. So when you're thinking about the Express and all of these things, voice and vibe, and what I'll talk about here in a minute, it's because you got to let the team needs to know, humans need to be educated, but AI needs the context or AI needs to be on board educated to that thing as well. The next thing that I think is highly important, and again, I've talked about this historically in other podcasts and stuff, is like one of the things that I think was the most fascinating thing that I did for my AI assistant and for my team is I literally have a document that is top 10 mindsets, top 10 beliefs, top 10 core values. Well, what does that do? Well, creates a point of view.

What do you believe in your organization, in your industry, in your products and services? What do you believe that others might not? So you've got to have that point of view. It's our take on the world, right? It's our take on the problems we solve.

It's our take. This, by the way, listeners, is how you rise above the copycat content that is bound to happen, that is already happening. And you create thought leadership that builds trust, you build a thought leadership that sticks. And the third thing that I want to mention here, Liz, is ideal customer profiles or personas. Who are we really for?

We're literally having a meeting later today at Sidekick Strategies about like, hey, in 2026, who do we want to serve? Because I want the team to be passionate about who we're serving. And so I literally threw this out of like, moving forward in 2026, do we want our ideal client profile to be gaming companies? Do we want it to be, you know, pet companies? Do we want it to be churches?

Because I know the humans inside the organization and things that they're passionate about, and if they could be helping these ideal client profiles or customer profiles, these personas with things that they're already passionate about, now, do we enter a world where it's a win win situation versus just taking what's coming down the funnel and closing it and saying, this is who we're for because this is who's showing up. Right? And so when you think about that, does your AI or hybrid team know about what they care about, what they fear, what they dream of, and how you make them feel, how you make them feel understood, how you can pull the lever of feeling before you ever try to sell or grab their wallet. Right? And so when you combine those three, Liz, I think it makes a good package of what Express is.

It's your voice and vibe, it's point of view, and it's the ideal customer profiles or personas that you, with that you get clarity. And again, you mentioned it before I even started talking about this, with clarity, this is like clarity is your ultimate content accelerator. I mean, gives AI something meaningful to mimic. It gives your team permission to create confidently without second guessing tone or message every single time they go to create something. Liz, I'll shut up here in a second, but the way I like to think about this is if if it if your marketing was a band, okay?

Express is where you tune your instruments. Because if you don't tune your instruments before you all start playing, then it's gonna be chaotic. It's not gonna sound good and nobody wants to hear it anyway. So people have to slow down. They've gotta tune the instruments in the express stage.

That was some loud dunking. Thanks, Vax. That was the double D coming in at the very end. Anyways, that's that's what

Oh, Oh, wow. We

don't need that either. I'm at the slurp stage.

Yeah. Just A some more slurp. We Looking to hub heroes.

So, yeah. So that's what I would say about Express and where my mind goes.

Yeah. I mean, I think a really good way to think about it, and this is how I teach it a lot. Because I work with a lot of companies and brands to do messaging strategies and content style guides. And people will often think they need one or the other. They do not realize they need both because your messaging strategy is what you say and your content style guide is how you say it.

Yeah. And it's a really it's a really critical thing to keep in mind. We always learned that when we were younger kids, right, it's not just what you say, it's how you say it. You have to have both. You have to have that really dialed in clarified view of what our expression is.

How do we say things? How do we talk about things? That is how people start to connect with you. Also again, like we always like to talk about, you know, humans buy from humans. There's a lot of automation thrown in the mix here now, but ultimately at the end of the day, or if you just wanna even get a little bit more practical about it and you wanna step away from the human side, you wanna do it?

Give me a good old human.

Yeah. The human side. Yeah.

Yeah. If you don't have this kind of stuff dialed in, what's gonna happen is that your everybody on your sales team, marketing team, everybody's gonna be agreed on the what. And then every piece of content, every website page you create, every blog article you create under that kind of omniscient voice will all sound different depending on who wrote it. Mhmm. And that's it gets a little dicey.

So I wanna dig into this clarity piece just for one layer deeper because you already started touching upon this, George, and actually, I'll open this up to Max and Chad as well. When we take a look at this clarity of expression that HubSpot is really pushing with this first stage, why is that important right now, particularly with the context of AI?

Like for me, you know, again, not not a marketer, right, is not a marketer.

But but you are human.

But I am human.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I do encounter a lot of marketing in my day to day life as we all do. And I think, like, the being able to keep everybody on the same page in plat in your platform gives your anything that anybody sees on anything because not, you know, sometimes in an organization that's even larger, like, the same person who's doing some of the social media stuff isn't doing some of the web stuff and isn't doing some, you know, like, different people are doing those different pieces sometimes. And, like, the the things that HubSpot's pushing you to, me coming at it from a technical perspective as always, is to make sure that everybody's on the same page if they're performing all of this in marketing studio is using the ICP AI data source setting and so ideal customer profile, and then the brand identity section as well of your AI data source, as well as the products and services, and then finally crafting for each campaign you build to be more specific if it's outside of your normal, but built from that foundation so that everybody's on the same page. That way, when you see some add on, you know, somewhere, if you're seeing an advertisement or if you're seeing any kind of content or any kind of you know, that's related that's being pushed through a marketing source, that it all stems from that same, you know, mission or same company customer profile, same company perspective, you know, all the things that you're solving for is the same across all of it if you're able to use the platform to accomplish it.

I think that's the beautiful part of, like, if you're fully using all the tools, that's the that's the ideal way to look at it. You know, if you're trying to say what are they solving for and how do you do it in the system. Right? So there's all those different features, buzzwords or whatever, if you will, that I just listed out that are all things that they want that they that at least in their documentation, they say this is the the where you would go to do that to make sure that everybody is evolving between your AI and your humans doing the all the stuff and and your message is the same because it's great. When, you know, when you see weird stuff across multiple, This happens a lot with smaller organizations.

Like, I have some friends who manage some construction company ads. And, like, sometimes you see what these people do on their own, and you're like, oh, yeah. Like, I mean, if I, you know, saw that on Facebook in two differences, just like not even the same, or it takes you to a page that says nothing about what the ad's about. Right? And so this, I think, will help with that.

Right? That's the idea anyway.

That'd so for real. Yeah. I've never been more lost in a conversation than I am at this moment right now.

Fascinating. Tell us why.

I don't even know what we're talking about at this point, and I've been paying attention. I don't know. Like, the like, I I I what was the original question you had asked, Chad, Liz?

All I had asked was that why was this type of clarity in the in the context of Express this specific stage, why is it important against the context of AI and what's happening in content right now?

I don't even know what that means. My brain can't can't process that at all. Like, I and I'm looking I I'm, like, looking at the loop marketing, like, playbook page. And I've I've I've my brain is just completely shutting off. Like, I've gotten to this point where I'm, like, looking at, like, you know me how it like, when I when I talk about the flywheel a lot.

And I'm like, there's these very natural sort of progressions through where these chevrons meet, and it really makes a lot of sense. I'm trying to apply that same and maybe you guys can tell me if I'm just looking at this the wrong way. Right? But I'm trying to take that same idea, especially looking at stage four, which is evolve and how it swoops back up into express. And I'm sitting here wondering, is this is this insinuating that you're constantly re expressing yourself and constantly revisiting expression all the time?

Like, because the, like, the the visual just doesn't work for me. Right? Maybe I just don't get it.

This

is

this

is And I'm not saying this is bad.

This is needed

because no one knows how to do this in this crazy age, especially when we we just we we just figured we just became comfortable with with the fact that we could instantly turn ourselves into a Pixar character. And then before we were even comfortable with that, Sora two came out, and we're like, we don't know what real life is anymore because we could literally create anything, and we can't trust video at all. Right?

Yeah.

And then when I think I think someone who sees this is gonna be like, uh-huh. What? It sounds like a lot of, like, woo woo, you know, craziness that is thousand times deeper than, like, most marketers are gonna be able to understand.

So I don't

know.

Max so first of all, let me just say this. Max, I love you.

I love you so much.

Because I think that you are expressing pun intended.

We're just a blue collar marker, Roca.

You're, you're expressing how I feel a lot of humans will feel in the moment. And this is why I said it inbound, these words. I believe everything that was on each of the slides for the four phases or stages, I don't necessarily agree with the visual of the loop. Now, understand what was trying to be portrayed of like, it's just a crazy time in the world and buyers are doing all these things, but because buyers are doing all these things, marketers, they think in like steps to get things accomplished. Now, while I do believe that you might iterate your voice and tone over time, or like we are at Psychic Strategies, we're pausing for a moment to see what do we want our future ideal customer profiles to be that we want to start targeting or attracting, right?

To go back to some terminology that we all know. But Max, really the crux of the conversation that Liz was trying to start there is like, so many marketers are going to think that they need to do this AI stuff. They're going to be HubSpot users. They may not have even used ChatGPT or Claude up until this point. So they're literally getting their feet wet and they haven't heard the words of context and how AI needs context to actually give you an output that is consistent with what you might want to put into the world.

So like clarity is important, but to have clarity, you said, Max, something that I love. Most marketers aren't ready for the deep exploration that they're going to have to take to get the clarity that they're going to need. Listen, I'll go back to the fact that we have the document about beliefs, mindsets, and core values. I only have that because I went on a year and a half exploration with Liz on another podcast called Beyond Your Default, to which then I used AI to reverse engineer out of all of those episodes, what must be the beliefs, mindsets, and core values of the human doing this to then be able to feed it back into AI for clarity in which it should create in this manner or way. And I know we're getting to a question that is going to be more of like, well, how do you do said thing?

So, I don't want to spoil that. Like, how how do you train your AI? Because there's outside of HubSpot and there's inside of HubSpot that want to talk about that. But Max, I don't think that the loop is a track that marketers are actually following. The loop is what the buyer is doing.

The stages are more of a, I guess I'll use linear set of things that you might want to think about doing in the production or creation of the things that you're creating. I'll shut up, Liz. I think you had some thoughts too because we both were shaking our head no at the same time when Max is having his crisis there.

My episode. Wait, but wait, what do you mean about the customers are doing the loop? So I like when I go out and buy a Snickers bar, I'm not expressing tailoring or amplifying or evolving any way you should

You running through a loop of thoughts in your brain. Do I want a Snickers today or do I want this?

We're talking about the buyer's journey though. That's the buyer's

I I don't disagree, that's where this was born from. If you hear the original story, literally I'll just, here's Here's what I I what I heard somebody was standing in front of a room, not to be mentioned. And they were talking about how everything was changing and SEO was broke and this is happening. And they literally were making this hand gesture as they were talking. And somebody said, kind of like a loop.

And exactly. And that's where loop marketing was born from what I've been told by sources I would believe. And so again, I I say, I don't know if it's a great visual, but I do believe in the things that we talk about in each one of these stages to be important and true. And see, here's the world that we live in right now is it is confusing because you're trying to roll up the inbound methodology. You're trying to roll up the buyer's journey and you're trying to shove it into something that really is a marketer's playbook to get the things out for the methodology and the journey.

But people are looking at it as it's like all in one encompassing, and it's not.

Yeah. I mean, I'm still in the camp that this is this is a big sign that says use AI tools. That, like and I I hate that. I hate it. Yeah.

I hate being in that mindset. Right? But when I look at this and it's and it and it clearly use it says literally says use AI. Like, it it it and and, again, don't get me wrong. We gotta give people a framework to do it.

I'm all for Right? Yeah. I I take umbrage with the idea that this is this has anything to do with the buyer's journey. Right? Like, that's a fundamentally separate concept.

But, yeah, it's it's weird. You know, I I will say it would be weird from an optic standpoint for them to come out with some kind of strategy that terminates at the end. You know what I mean? Like that because then it's like, oh, wait. It looks just like the original inbound methodology, which looked like it ended, but really didn't because it always had that thing underneath it.

Never did. All the way back to the front. And then they just they just curvatured it when they did the flywheel. Right? Yeah.

But yeah. I mean, it the the you know what would be the most, like, useful thing for me, and I think for a lot of other people that might be a little bit more smooth brained like me

Do too.

Looking at express, tailor, amplify, and evolve and breaking down. Okay. What does that literally mean without the, you know, God, it's like it's just like a white woman's Instagram words that are on top of it. You know what I mean? Wow.

What do you Live live, laugh, love, evolve

As the white woman in the room, I'm fine with it.

Right? Okay. Okay. But you're wrong. Right?

Not canceled. Not canceled.

This looks like something that people would have on wooden plaques in their kitchen. Right?

We're living, laughing, loving with HubSpot. And and No. I completely agree.

I just wanna know what this stuff actually mean. Like, I I I when I look at it, I just it's not tangible. You know what I mean? Inbound was tangible. It was easy.

It was simple. This ain't dude. It's not.

I gotta be honest. I I'm feeling a little I I gotta drop in with my thoughts here, George. First, number one, I'm feeling a little vindicated because Max, in our last episode, I was the one who was like, not as hilarious as you, but going like, what, what is this and why are we here? Because I could not figure, are you trying to solve for a product? Are you trying to like, are we, are we replacing?

Are we not replacing the flat? Where's the inbound method? Like, what is what is happening here? Because this is the first time they've rolled out something where I've looked at it. And even though I will admit, and we talked about this on previous episodes with the flywheel, I was like flywheel, ew.

But like I got where they were coming from. I understood like there was a real ethos behind it and this I'm just kinda like, okay. So we're loop marketing now.

It's it's a marketer's playbook to hybrid teams and AI usage. Let's call it what it is.

And don't get me wrong. I think it's just explained in this overly fluffy way that makes it really difficult to understand the the the the what are you literally doing through each one of these stages? Because you can do that for inbound. You can, like, go it's like, yeah, attracting games and delight. Sounds pretty amorphous, but you you can explain what you're literally doing, like, behind each one of those words.

Right?

If you're to take express, it's really simple. It is a messaging strategy and your content style guide.

Is it That's it. Literally.

Yeah. But

It's a that's

it. Am I am I explaining it right? If it's it's you define your buyer persona. I'm still I'm gonna call it buyer persona till the day I die. Okay.

We go. Sometimes a trial. Yeah. Yeah.

Max got you on

that one. But but it also sounds like creating a ton of documentation that makes your AI understand how to talk like you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

It's Where is that written anywhere in this playbook? It's not.

Well, This is why we're having this episode. Why should we be

the ones that have to do it? God.

Can I tell you as the content strategist person here? I would love to tell you this. You would be surprised. This is something we've talked about with content hiring and like very old episodes. Content is the thing that makes inbound go and it is the thing that inbounders do not know how to do and there aren't a ton of specialists who know how to do it.

A lot of these disciplines are things that you see at enterprise levels. Like I specialize in creating messaging strategies and content style guides. Your normal inbound marketer does not know how to do it. This is not something taught. This is usually something gate kept at a higher level.

And I only learned how to do it when I was a baby content manager at Quintain in 2015 when I realized no one sounds the same and there are no rules. Like, so I figured out how to make rules. But that's pretty much it. And this is the one thing that I've always found striking and very confusing. There are already terms for these things.

Like, I love the idea of express, but like it's literally create a messaging strategy. Your messaging strategy begins with your buyer personas and who they are. That's how every one of my messaging workshops begins. You do a messaging strategy once you decide on what you're saying, then you do another workshop or set of exercises that helps you determine your voice tone and style. Which are your rules for how you sound and what you editorially look like on paper.

Like, that's really what it is, and it's just, like, very confusing in the way that they describe it.

Yeah. I suspect the reason that they feel like they wanted to change the terminology is maybe not to encroach on that segment, but also to like because it's in the context of a hybrid team. Like, right on the front page, you know, it says express your distinct brand identity. So it's like

Messaging strategies are built for multidisciplinary teams. Messaging strategies are not built for marketers. They are built for everyone. I mean, like right off the bat.

Chad, I agree with you. And listen, I, if I'm being completely honest right now, which I, I typically am, I feel like when we entered this world of AI content creation or this express phase, that I've had an unfair advantage the entire time, because one of the things that I did almost four years ago when I started the business is I actually hired Liz to help me do a voice and tone workshop. Along the entire way, I've had an entire presentation deck and information that I could feed to my AI assistant and say, this is who I am. This is how I want to show up. And I've continued to add layers along the way, which again, if we ever get to the next question, I'll talk about those layers.

Gosh, we got two minutes left. I know.

Like, how do we wanna-

An eight part series?

No, but I think this brings up a really important point. You know what, we're gonna do a second second version of this and that's fine. But I think this brings up the larger point because we have done lots of product rollout announcements together. We've done new initiatives, We've done new hubs. We and this one has been the messiest.

Yeah. This is the one where multiple times throughout these conversations, one summer, all of us are going, well, I guess we're here and this is what we're doing now. Not entirely sure why, but we think we kind of know why. And I think this is something that needs to be addressed because if we are sitting here for yes, somewhat smooth brained, but pretty smart people who spend a lot of time in HubSpot and we're confused. Can you imagine how the everyday HubSpot is feeling right now looking at all of this?

Matt's face.

I just looked at no. I just looked down at this stupid loop marketing scorecard Careful. Careful. No. It's just like, never mind.

It makes it even more confusing. I'm sorry. So so

the more it looks, the more confused I get.

So here's what I'm gonna say. And Max, you kind of said like, why should it be our job? I was empathetic to this at the very beginning, which is why I said, team, Liz, Max, Chad, we're not gonna do one episode about this. There's no way. No.

It is our job moving forward to try to do our best to simplify the rest of these conversations we have, Express B2, because we didn't even get to like six of our questions that we wanna talk about. And then the rest of the three that we need to hit. Because again, I do think that we're normal humans, but I think that we're smart humans. And I think that all of us have used HubSpot for a lot of years and were nerdy in different directions to like Liz voice and tone, you know, technical stuff. But literally one of the conversations that we need to have is like, I, I so wanted to get to this question.

So I'm gonna tease out the next time we have the V2 of this. I so wanted to answer this question. How do you actually teach? Because Max, you said,

What do you do?

So one of the questions is, How do you actually teach your brand's voice to AI tools so they don't spit out generic content? What particular tools or processes do you recommend? Style guides, prompts, training, etcetera. That right there will help simplify the complexities in people's brains because we'll be able to talk about the things, the steps, the the have this, do this, talk to it like this in the next episode. Okay, hub heroes.

We've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the hub heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out in the next episode. Make sure you head over to the hubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the league of heroes. FYI, if you're part of the league of heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well.

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